What should the profit taking reqirement be for trading contests?
70+ pips (9)
31%
60+ pips (0)
0%
50+ pips (2)
7%
40+ pips (2)
7%
30+ pips (9)
31%
No Requirements (7)
24%

What should the profit taking requirement be for trading contests?

Keep in mind that if you vote for no requirement, you will be competing against other users that have the ability to cheat.

See here for my post about details on the take profit requirement and the reasons behind it

I certainly would want the profit requirements to be as much as 70 pips. It discourages "cheat mode" trading methods such as scalping, and provides an opportunity to sift the wheat from the tares as far as forex trading is concerned. A contest should be able to determine who is the best at a particluar game.

With a profit target of 70 pips, any trader who is worht his salt should be able to take a look at the market and determine the direction a currency should go and make the trade. A good trade can certainly land in 70 pips. Such opportunities may not come every day, but within a month, we should be able to see some of such moves and be able to determine a great forex trader as winner of this contest.

Every trader has his/her own trading style. So my system is good for me, system from Fat Cat is good for him and system from Jason is probably good for him. The point is: Nobody can force his own system as the only good one. Sorry, such a system doesn’t exist. Every trader must develop his own trading system. I told this in the manual of my trading system even: There are no 2 traders on the world that can trade by the exactly same system. Estimation is: 4 million traders participate every day at Fx, 3.8 million are amateurs.

 

Razor members are all amateurs for sure. By statistic I read somewhere 68% accounts from amateurs are under $5,000. How to benefit on such account with monthly gain of 5.99% (FxRazor SMS signals, profit take are over 70 pips mostly)? 2^ND point is: Such a gain is good for large accounts and not for amateurs. Nobody has a patience to trade for years and nothing to withdraw. And how to trade for months/years that way if trader MUST do a regular job through the day too?

 

This new SMS signals from Razor can be very useful help for all traders with regular job: Set and forget system. Excellent job! Just to keep present performance through next 5 months at least to recognize this as consistent profitable system by Jason’s criteria. It’s good as an extra profit maker, but still not to live from this.

 

I don’t care of 70 pips rule so much: It’s equal hard for all traders probably. But in my next post I’ll tell you why this is not real.

Look at FxCM  LIVE contest Micro King. February results: 1^st place, gain of 1493%, 2^nd place gain of 1245% and 3^rd place with 736%. I checked all their trades: 1^st place – daily around 70 trades with average gain below 10 pips. 2^nd place around 25 trades daily with average gain below 18 pips. And 3^rd place with around 60 trades daily and average gain below 14 pips. By criterium I saw from Jason’s post (and some others as well too) – these people are bad traders… THIRD point: Just short trades by pips can bring you good return on small account. And you should look at March FxCM results too, I found just preliminary, few days old: First 10 results are over 1000% profit, 1^st place made 2400% profit! They are all bad traders because they haven’t not even one trade over 70 pips gain in whole month? On live accounts? Hm, do I need to think again?

 

Everybody who signs up for contests has an idea to win some of the prizes. It’s the same in any sport isn’t it? Do you think that a tennis player come to contest to learn something new? Or some swimmer just to practice? I doubt. FOURTH point: Contests are not places to learn Forex trading for example. It’s a place for battle!

 

To learn Forex – go to Jonah’s videos: I trade for living 6 years already but I found in those videos some very great things. Hat off! That's why I am in this Forum

Why I think that gain of 70 pips is not reasonable for amateurs? When Jason sent me an email few days ago he said: “…we rolled out a new system of signals at the beginning of this month (March) which involves the entire forexrazor investment team.” FIFTH point: Amateurs haven’t a team which will analyze market and maybe make a right decision where the trend will go. I trade with Carlo and 2 other guys (through Skype) and believe me: We are in right direction just in 50% of trades maximum. Market is wild and there is no technical analyzes which can predict future movements, just history. So from our experience: Take a small profit but 20 times per day is much better than waiting on 70 pips profit for few days.

 

CONCLUSION: When I’ll grow up and I’ll have an account of $100k at least I’ll look for a long term strategies probably with take profit over 70 pips, no matter how many days I’ll have open positions. Because I won’t sit near computers then for sure: I have better things to do in my life too.

Jason and others at FxRazor, don't understand me wrong: I have nothing against contest and special rules - just don't forget that your members are amateurs with limited knowledge, patience, with small accounts... and you can't expect great strategic decisions from us as every trade with 70 pips gain at least is.  

Quite opposite: I am not a premium member here, I trade 2 my own systems, but I found this site interesting beside other 100 similar sites and forums. With fun and great company. I made a lot of new friends even... I sent 46 times 'My Trading Way' to other members...

So, any decision on the minimum pips so far? To gain 70pips is to get me to trade violatile currencies and it has a higher risk of getting my account blown off. Also, it is pretty tough to do that as i trade EUR/USD almost all the times. Unless there is a given direction (breakout or nice range trend of 100pips) of where this currency goes to, it is hard to achieve that 70pips. Even so, the entry position is crucial so that you will not be trap in the middle of the range.

Hope you can lower it down.

Sure definitely I think it is pretty clear at this point Allan; a majority of the traders do not want to be limited in their trading but also don't want to compete against EA's with runaway profits potentially due to unnatural prices and execution etc.

We can implement this asap, let me speak with MJ and coordinate a notification of such change, change will be effective on notification, at which time we will also post a notice.

Happy Trading!

Notice sent, new rule in effect!

Wow... i am amazed at the response of the admin and moderator of this forum. They are definately listening to the people. Great to be here.

Hi Wayne,

I thought the rules stated that Profits taken must be at least 30pips? It doesn't matter whether you got stop out or not. Even if you get stop out, i don't think a disqualification is fair as the objective of the trading contest is also to help traders to use Money management as a habit? I would see it that if you got stop out at 4pips, it won't be counted as a winning entries at the end of the day. However, i would see this 4pips to increase your equity so that you are 4 pips away from the 15% draw down rule.
Not sure i am right on this.

Posted By Carlo on 02 Apr 2009 01:37 AM
30 pips rule: Average of 30 pips or every positive trade minimum?

DD rule of 15%: On or OFF?

----Carlo, average of 30 pips is not going to work, it must be 30 pips per trade...high leverage snipes + low leverage longshots = 30 pip avg that circumvents rule intention.

----Wayne, I am with you and also use this strategy.  I don't like to have to say this, but for similar reasons as above the average gain per position taken needs to be 30+ pips.  You can take less than 30 on part of a position including getting out at break even, that is not a problem, just that your average gain on that position must be 30+ pips.  So for example, for anyone reading and not understanding if you take 100 pips on half a position and 0 on the second half, net gain is 50 pips which is acceptable as it is 20 pips higher than required.

MJ will get your login details but probably not until tomorrow morning.

Also guys - I have to apologize and admit the execution of this contest has been appalling.  MJ has done a great job of trying to pull the pieces together, while probably losing lots of hair and sleep and having to spend way more time on it than we like.

In any case, it appears we will not partner with itradefx for a contest next month.  We should have something setup by then, I really like running these except for the headaches...which could be seriously reduced.

Posted By Jason on 02 Apr 2009 02:58 AM

Posted By Carlo on 02 Apr 2009 01:37 AM
30 pips rule: Average of 30 pips or every positive trade minimum?

DD rule of 15%: On or OFF?

----Carlo, average of 30 pips is not going to work, it must be 30 pips per trade...high leverage snipes + low leverage longshots = 30 pip avg that circumvents rule intention.

----Wayne, I am with you and also use this strategy.  I don't like to have to say this, but for similar reasons as above the average gain per position taken needs to be 30+ pips.  You can take less than 30 on part of a position including getting out at break even, that is not a problem, just that your average gain on that position must be 30+ pips.  So for example, for anyone reading and not understanding if you take 100 pips on half a position and 0 on the second half, net gain is 50 pips which is acceptable as it is 20 pips higher than required.

MJ will get your login details but probably not until tomorrow morning.

Also guys - I have to apologize and admit the execution of this contest has been appalling.  MJ has done a great job of trying to pull the pieces together, while probably losing lots of hair and sleep and having to spend way more time on it than we like.

In any case, it appears we will not partner with itradefx for a contest next month.  We should have something setup by then, I really like running these except for the headaches...which could be seriously reduced.

Hi Jason,

thank you for adding me as a friend.
Ya, i do empathize with MJ as he needs to solve all the itrade login problem. I am wondering how he is managing now. Ya, agreed with you that he did a great job. I hope MJ is fine.

Anyway, you guys are just amazing. Keep up the good work.

Hi, Please clarify the average gain point again. Its average gain of 30 points across all your trades (profit making/loss making/part profit part loss), or does it have to be on each & every trade, or maybe just on profitable trades ? I mean how in the world can you have a success rate of 100%. There will always be trades which wont make money & will get stopped out. Cheers :)

Hi Jason and Allan

Thank you for the explanation and advice, much appreciated.

As for finding new partners to trade with from a competition point of view, may I throw in my 5c please with a request?
Please could you try and find a partner that will allow winners to open accounts with their winnings without having to add additional funds to the account?
If I want to trade my $75 winnings for example, why do I have to add another $1000?

I already have a few brokers that I am very happy with and to change, the new broker would have to prove to me that I shouldm not force me to.

Thanks again
Wayne

PS: I have no idea where MJ gets the patience from, but I for one sure appreciate having him around and the effort he puts in.

Posted By piyush08 on 02 Apr 2009 03:13 AM
Hi, Please clarify the average gain point again. Its average gain of 30 points across all your trades (profit making/loss making/part profit part loss), or does it have to be on each & every trade, or maybe just on profitable trades ? I mean how in the world can you have a success rate of 100%. There will always be trades which wont make money & will get stopped out. Cheers :)

Thanks Allan

Piyush,

The rule is not an average but rather only applies to profitable trades.  Any profitable trade must net 30 pips or more.  The only time an average would apply is if you take partial profit or loss on a position.  The net gain given such a scenario must equal 30 or more pips.  So if you enter a trade, and then take profit on half at +100 pips, then the second half gets stopped out at break even, your net gain for that position is +50 pips.

Please let me know if that does not clarify it.

Thanks,
Jason

Hi, yes that does clarify the situation. But really it doesnt make much sense to me. I use trailing stop right from the beginning, now it might just be that a position does move into profits, but then turns back to take out the stop, between 0 & 30 pips profit. For one such transaction you would disqualify me from winning. that wouldnt be fair. Then the only alternative i would have is to keep hard stops, & then when my position has moved so much that my trailing stop would have moved to 30pips, i manually move my stop to 30 pips profit, just so as to ensure that i have atleast 30 pips in profit. Doesnt make too much sense for me. Further, I follow a pyramiding structure, so as my positions keep on moving in profits, i keep on increasing the positions, with the trail stop for all of them being the same. So ultimately is does happen that the last position does get taken out for small loss, or a small profit.

Please try and convert the rule into a average for all profitable trades, maybe you can increase the 30 pips a bit higher, I dont mind.

Hmmm..... I love the minimum 70 pips rule but it should have been a average because there are situation when we need to close the position before price hitting the target.

At least you would have kept this rule for this contest and see how it would have worked.

Any way my vote is for average pips between 35 and 50 pips.